Leica M10 with Sony B&W sensor and Ricoh collaboration?
People is going wild about that new M10 camera! It will very likely have a Full Frame Black and White sensor with no Anti Aliasing filter, super sharpness and resolution and what matters more a much greater dynamic range which is even more fundamental for Black and White photography. Under the very unreliable rumors that are floating around the web the most interesting two are:
1) The new M10 will use a new Sony Black and White sensor. Kodak is out of the business and Sony is known for making FF cameras for third party companies.
2) Ricoh will be somehow involved in the production of parts of the new cameras. Apparently Leica production capability is that much limited that they made an agreement with Ricoh for the production of the new Leica M10 product.
Don’t know yet if those rumors are correct or not but this is going to be an exciting camera. I was dreaming of a Black and White sensor for a very long time now….and you?
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anon
2 years ago |Oh boy, you shouldn’t write posts before your first coffee
Miklós
2 years ago |YES!
lynn
2 years ago |finally a compact b&w only sensor (phase one is too expensice and bulky). i would give up color for more dynamic range. maybe 18 stops??? would look much better in b&w then color converted to b&w.
very artistic artsy look! especially on all the silver paper dedicated for b&w prints
Sergio
2 years ago |People don’t measure light much anymore. Their unit-less histograms don’t tell you the EV of the high or low values of a scene. If you did use a one-degree spot meter frequently, you might become familiar with typical light ranges in scenes. I shoot BW medium format film a lot still and use a one-degree.
What I’ve concluded is the 13 to 14EV of advertised DR of digital cameras is not true in real life at all. And you can test this yourself. On a bright, sunny day looking away from the Sun with no sun reflected objects in the scene, set your digital camera at f11, ISO 400 and 1/2 second. Take a picture. If you get 14 stops of DR, you will not blow highlights and capture detail in really dark areas as low as EV3. You can shoot that shot with BW film if you compress the highlights during development and I’ve done it. No way my digital can do it. It would be sweet if a BW digital sensor could improve upon this.
davey
2 years ago |The 13-14 stops is “engineering” dynamic range (DxO’s criteria of 0dB signal-to-noise ratio). Useful photographic dynamic range starts around 12-18 dB for most people, i.e., 2 or 3 stops less than the engineering measure.
stanislaw
2 years ago |On bright sunny day 400ISO f:11 and 1/2sec? Mister, something doesn`t square. I´ve taken a lots of film B/W,(I haven`t sold my M6 of course) now I use GRX too, with Leica lenses and I always use sunny16 rule ( f:16 and the shutter speed corresponding to ISO) and it works well both on film and digital (just to be sure not to blow highlights on digital I close a half stop down). In your case f:11 and 400ISO would give shutter speed of 1/800 or I miss something.My guess is a typo, instead 1/2 should be 1/2000.
Uncensored Photograper
2 years ago |For an 18 stop dynamic range you would need a perfect 18 bit A/D converter. The Leica M9 has a 14 bit A/D converter and DxO measured its dynamic range at 11.7 stops.
Bottom line: You’re not going to get anywhere near 18 stops in the new Leica.
Tom
2 years ago |Not sure when people started linking DR with the A/D converters but it has no linear correlation i.e. 18 stops DR requires 18 bit, it’s just not true.
The converter has everything to do with colour depth, DR is something quite different. And let’s not forget that a JPG has a baked in DR of 11 stops – dependant on colour space admittedly.
inevitablecrafts
2 years ago |you obviously dont understand the binay system or what dynamic range means or what a AD converter does ^^
what you wrote is complete nonsens
the 18steps are the dynamic range of the sensor
the 18 bit is the resolution of the ad converter
what you wrote is like someone that claims that a 16bit soundcard can only record sources with a certain dynamic range.
but in reality the 16bit of the soundcard and or sensor of a digital camera is only the “grid” it uses to digitalize which is around 65k steps while 8bit is only 256 steps.
so the advantage you get is lesser visible luminance/color steps with 16bit because it records more steps
but you can still have a sensor with a lousy dynamic range in front of that superfine AD converter
Ricoh.fr
2 years ago |RICOH-PENTAX + LEICA ?
Very strange…
befocus
2 years ago |has nothing to do, but some time ago there was a rumor that ricoh was developing a B&W only module for the GXR
however both rumors seem to be logical
Brad H.
2 years ago |I was and still am waiting for that. If there was any company that would release such a sensor on their products, it’d be Ricoh.
If only it was a collaborative effort with Leica (a la Minolta and Panasonic). So when it comes time to buy, get the camera without the name or dot and save a tonne. But these are rumours so we don’t know what to expect.
Harold GLIT
2 years ago |Yeeeeeeessss!
Honestly that sound too good to be true. I think anyone who has used extensively a camera with NO AA filter can speak of the amazing difference in IQ. as an user of the A12 GXR module and Sigma DP cameras , I am not keen on buying cameras with AA filter
as a Black & white Photographer (99% of my work) I know how much more IQ could bring a B&W only sensor
AND as a ricoh GXR user , I know how much better Ricoh compared to competition in terms of user interface so this sounds almost too good to be true
now the question is IS IT REALLY ?
Harold
Zonkie
2 years ago |The really important part of being a black and white sensor is not that they remove the AA filter (the M9 doesn’t have it, as some other cameras), but that they remove the Bayer color filter.
This color filter reduces resolution quite dramatically, and blocks 2/3 of the light hitting each pixel. Without it, the signal to noise ration should improve by about 1.5 f-stops (this is a big deal, imagine if it has the same sensor as the Nikon D800 but you can shoot at ISO 19200 and get the same performance as the D800 at ISO 6400), and the resolution could improve maybe by 20% or more.
But it only shoots B&W.
emopunk
2 years ago |That could be a fair trade for someone.
Harold GLIT
2 years ago |Hello
I understand that B&W allows more reolution BUT it is also a fact that removing the AA filter makes a significant difference in resolution
the combination of both on a state of the art sensor should be quite amazing
Hopefully if Ricoh produces some stuff for the M10 , there would be a GXR module version of that sensor
Harold
Ranger 9
2 years ago |“I think anyone who has used extensively a camera with NO AA filter can speak of the amazing difference in IQ.”
Yup, I love aliasing too. It looks almost like subject detail!
Kylberg
2 years ago |Whish I could say yes, but I fear such a camera would be outside my budget. I decided to go digital from Nikon D100. Still, to me, the best and most beautiful photo is film and carefully darkroom made.
A dedicated WB digital camera could move digital closer to the “analogue” made photos.
Harold GLIT
2 years ago |as I said above , a GXR version of it should be much affordable if you can live without rangefinder focusing
Harold
Ranger 9
2 years ago |+1 to Kylberg’s comment. I have a tremendous nostalgia for the days when I shot black-and-white film and crafted prints in my own darkroom. The honest fact is that most of those photos aren’t as good as the ones I make now digitally, but the sheer investment of effort they required makes me value them more than I should. I would love to kid myself that using a b&w-only camera would somehow “bring back the magic,” but logically I know that’s not really the case.
Also: Any camera bearing the Leica name is going to be more expensive than other cameras that take equally good pictures. Most of us need to make color photos at least occasionally, so a b&w-only camera could not be our “only” camera. A very expensive b&w-only camera will never be anything except a status symbol, used by only a few photographers but extensively displayed by well-off photo-jewelry collectors… again, nothing new for Leica!
Denis
2 years ago |Hope these are false rumours. I wanted to buy M10, but B&W — I’m sure I’ll pass it.
Johnny
2 years ago |Leica? Forget it! Samsung all the way. B & W camera?? That’s got to be the silliest thing I’ve heard of since the arrival of digital cameras,,,
Harold GLIT
2 years ago |Johny
Why ? the fact that such a sensor does not interest you and many others does not make it silly. a majority of Leica film users were B&W photogs and a Leica M does not have to sell in the same volume than a entry dslr’s to be profitable
Harold
Don
2 years ago |If it doesn’t have an optical rangefinder, I’m not buying – If it does I’m in.
EVFs are fiine for AF lenses, but I don’t like using MF on Olympus or Ricoh GXR.
Gabor
2 years ago |Okay, if they discount the previous M9 price by 2/3 for changing from three colors to one color… and divide that by 2 because of the cheaper Japanese automatic manufacture…
I thought then I’ll be able to afford a Leica, but it’s still expensive. Hopeless case…
Jean-Michel
2 years ago |Well, the idea is great of course, but to buy a so expensive camera to be limited to black & white, it really think it’s not a good maketing choice. I even just don’t believe it, despite the fact, I repeat, to have a geat IQ B&W sensor to make good art photography is really attractive…
Christopher M
2 years ago |I could see them teaming up with Ricoh if they produce a prosumer M mount camera, ala a digital CL.
Their flagship M cameras will continue to be produced in Germany, especially if it B&W only.
The market for B&W only has to be so tiny that it wouldn’t make sense to outsource it to Ricoh for additional production capacity.
Sergio
2 years ago |Sounds like a great marketing idea to me. Now Leica can sell those dentists and doctors two cameras instead of one. One for color and one for BW
Mikey
2 years ago |Interesting, but what does this mean for the partnership between Panasonic and Leica?
Panasonic has way more expertise in electronics so it would make more sense for Leica to partner with Panasonic for that but maybe Ricoh really caught Leicas eye with that m mount they made?
ihur
2 years ago |It will be released in “Limited Edition”. Not the whole M10 lineup.
deniz
2 years ago |if its gonna give the DR and tonality of b/w film, than im in. also, i wouldnt mind a screenless camera either.
Ado
2 years ago |Yes, I’m in! But probably can’t afford it
Earthrise
2 years ago |Sounds too good to be true, so probably isn’t, especially with April 1st around the corner
But if it is true and Ricoh bring out a version, FF or APS-C, for the GXR I’d be first in line.
Gman
2 years ago |Potentially, you could still create color images with such a camera by taking multiple exposures using red, green, and blue filters, and then combining each channel. This obviously has limitations, but it would be interesting to see the results.
Ageha
2 years ago |Haha, what a bs! Every CCD and CMOS sensor is a b&w sensor.
inevitablecrafts
2 years ago |yep, and we all know that, but you know …