UPDATED: Canon talks about mirrorless…
The japanese “Impressjapan” magazine had an interview with Canon Managers. You can downlaod the magazine pdf here: https://www.impressjapan.jp/pr/monitor/1112_dcm/271201_free.pdf.
UPDATE: Our reader “Fh” (thanks!) translated the interview. here is what Canon thinks about the mirrorless future:
– Will you be releasing a mirrorless camera?
Well, the C300 is mirrorless; just very big. But as for a real mirrorless, we will look at the market this coming year in order to make the best decision.
– When you say “look at the market”, are you concerned that mirrorless cameras would affect DSLR sales?
No, just that when you look at the current mirrorless systems and how they are used, there are many different approaches.
– For instance?
For mirrorless cameras, being able to change lenses is certainly a big merit. But you have to wonder, are interchangeable lenses really the only point of mirrorless cameras, considering the added size for the lens mount? When you’re taking pictures, a standard camera size is fine, but when you’re not…
– Right, they’re still quite big.
And on either side, we are challenging ourselves to make DSLRs that are smaller, and compacts that have better image quality. So you have to ask if a mirrorless product is really necessary to fill the narrowing gap. Of course, we are more than capable of making a mirrorless camera, if we decide to.
– So you think current mirrorless cameras overlap DSLR and compact markets?
Right.
– But that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t release a mirrorless that overlaps other markets, right? You mentioned you want to release a mirrorless in 2012.
Well, we want to release a mirrorless next year. But next year, the other markets will also change: there will probably be smaller DSLRs and compacts with greater image quality, which might eat into the mirrorless market.
In short, as the quotations from the interview highlight:
“Do mirrorless cameras really need interchangeable lenses?”
“DSLRs and compacts might eat into mirrorless market”
“Big improvement in image quality for consumer cameras than the past year”
The online PDF is cut short, so I can’t tell if any other information was given. But it was not strictly confirmed that Canon will release a mirrorless in 2012; just that IF they decide to release a mirrorless, they want to release it next year.”
Kolen
2 years ago |May it be a Full Frame mirrorless and I will immediately buy it.
inteliboy
2 years ago |Keep dreaming. As much as we keep asking for this… it just aint going to happen, at least not by Sony, Nikon or Canon. Pentax or Fuji, maybe. Leica, obviously yes, but say goodbye to $$$.
L.Coen
2 years ago |You be be the only one then who can afford it. With all due respect I don’t Canon will make a lot of money selling a camera to you. I hear so many ppl on the net asking for FF cameras, but highly doubt any of them can really afford it. The camera makers know every single stat on who spends money on what and when and why.Canon knows that the CSC cameras now just overlap the dslrs, only bettering them by size.Smaller camera bodies are not the only thing users think of when buying cameras.The ps cameras get better and better, the dlsrs get smaller and smaller, and the canon gx1 can bridge the remaining gap if done right in the near future.When you look at the mirrorless camera market, its safe to presume that MOST users don’t spend much money on amassing lens for them. I hardly see anyone with a exotic lens for m43, it’s usually the kit lens, a pancake here and there.Just cause there are seven guys who are willing to spend 5 grand on m43 lenses, that is not enough for market for Canon.There is a big difference between what the 1% can afford to buy and what 99% WILL buy. The 99% do not buy FF cameras, nor can they afford to.People really need to stop asking for things they can’t afford.
Scotch
2 years ago |Seems that the Canon guy was talking about a mirrorless camera with FIXED lens… looks like a G13 for me
Miroslav
2 years ago |Hopefully they won’t make the same mistake as Nikon – make mirrorless with too small sensor and go for P&S upgraders only.
L.Coen
2 years ago |Canon knows that the vast majority of what people who buy CSC cameras are for the small size of those camera bodies and smaller lenses. that being said, the market for what lenses you can sell for those CSC cameras is limited. I don’t see ppl with large 2.8 telephoto lenses on those cameras , let alone exotic ultra wide lenses too. The majority of ppl who use m43 cameras have either the kit zoom or a pancake that is somewhere in the range of the zoom. Sometimes you see a m43 40-150 lens. So given that fact, Canon sees no reason in making a new mount CSC system just to sell mainly 2 or 3 types of lenses.The CSC system is quite limited by its origin of concept.When you make a CSC, it has to remain compact, esp bodies and lenses. If the lenses get bigger, than it is not compact anymore, thus nullifying the advantage. That is why Canon ses CSC as just an overlap, not a replacement for dslrs.The gap between dslr and ps cameras is too small to warrant a new Canon mount and system.Once ps camera get better IQ, and dlsrs get smaller, and cameras like the gx1 get better fixed zoom lens, there will be no gap left and no more advantage whatsoever for m43 systems.With all the experience Canon and Nikon have with making cameras for around half a century, I think they’re right not to jump on the m43 bad wagon, because they can attack the competition with other means.
fh
2 years ago |Well, the interview doesn’t really confirm or deny a Canon EVIL.
Excerpt translation:
– Will you be releasing a mirrorless camera?
Well, the C300 is mirrorless; just very big. But as for a real mirrorless, we will look at the market this coming year in order to make the best decision.
– When you say “look at the market”, are you concerned that mirrorless cameras would affect DSLR sales?
No, just that when you look at the current mirrorless systems and how they are used, there are many different approaches.
– For instance?
For mirrorless cameras, being able to change lenses is certainly a big merit. But you have to wonder, are interchangeable lenses really the only point of mirrorless cameras, considering the added size for the lens mount? When you’re taking pictures, a standard camera size is fine, but when you’re not…
– Right, they’re still quite big.
And on either side, we are challenging ourselves to make DSLRs that are smaller, and compacts that have better image quality. So you have to ask if a mirrorless product is really necessary to fill the narrowing gap. Of course, we are more than capable of making a mirrorless camera, if we decide to.
– So you think current mirrorless cameras overlap DSLR and compact markets?
Right.
– But that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t release a mirrorless that overlaps other markets, right? You mentioned you want to release a mirrorless in 2012.
Well, we want to release a mirrorless next year. But next year, the other markets will also change: there will probably be smaller DSLRs and compacts with greater image quality, which might eat into the mirrorless market.
In short, as the quotations from the interview highlight:
“Do mirrorless cameras really need interchangeable lenses?”
“DSLRs and compacts might eat into mirrorless market”
“Big improvement in image quality for consumer cameras than the past year”
The online PDF is cut short, so I can’t tell if any other information was given. But it was not strictly confirmed that Canon will release a mirrorless in 2012; just that IF they decide to release a mirrorless, they want to release it next year.
Frak
2 years ago |Fh Thanks very much for the translation.
Mistral75
2 years ago |Thank you fh, much appreciated.
z
2 years ago |Thanks for your translation. BTW
“Do mirrorless cameras really need interchangeable lenses?”
-Do X100, leica X1 and fixed ricohs sell more than nex/m43? Do they even get smaller?
“DSLRs and compacts might eat into mirrorless market”
-Exact opposite actually, and they eat it real good.
“Big improvement in image quality for consumer cameras than the past year”
-Yea..so is the mirrorless. Big time.
Pretty much what I expect from a company that try to make you think what they want you to think.
They said interchangability is like dubious and misleading. That is an idiotic statement. X100 is a lot bigger than NX200+30/2 and X10 to GF+20/1.7. And can a fixed camera ever produce a nice wonderful effect that oly 45/1.8 and sammy 85/1.4 gives?
All I want to ask is, what is the point of uninterchangability of a big, good sensor? None.
fh
2 years ago |Most of the Canon rep’s answers are rhetorical, simply being dodgy so as not to reveal whatever Canon may have up its sleeve (as you would typically expect).
I think there are two key things that will influence what Canon might release in 2012:
1) The lukewarm reception of the Nikon N1/V1 due to its small sensor (size advantage, yes, but if you want to change lenses and have F-mount compatability, image quality should have higher priority)
2) The popularity of the NEX-7 (even despite some minor flaws, the small selection of E-mount lenses, and comparatively low A-mount glass ownership), when taking into account that it’s priced right alongside the X100 and X1
I don’t see any logic for why Canon would choose fixed-lens a-la X100/X1; for that they have the G series, and they can just bump up its sensor size down the line. It would only make sense for Canon to develop a short-flange EF-x mount; if they cover their bases initially with a few decent lenses (much like NEX/MFT in their early days), they can still easily take a command of the mirrorless segment by simply selling a mount adapter and giving existing Canon shooters access to their EF and EF-S glass. [Which is what Nikon would have been able to do, if it weren't for the disappointing sensor size.]
Atlasman
2 years ago |In order to kill the DSLR, what are the barriers that the mirrorless system must overcome?
The EVF is one and Sony has taken a huge stride forward in this category.
The last frontier, I believe, is auto focus. The current lineup of mirrorless are ok for some of the applications, but completely inadequate some.
Could this be why Canon is holding out on releasing a mirrorless system? Until you have ultra fast auto focus, you really can’t begin designing the lenses.
What are your thoughts?
fh
2 years ago |EVF/LVF has improved, but it still needs to get better. Particularly in performance (lag).
AF is also on the table, but even though faster AF would be great, I don’t think there’s as much urgency (or relevance), with the current state of sensor/EVF technology. Photographers who demand AF performance will still rely on phase detection, and PDAF goes hand in hand with the mirror and OVF (which, unlike EVF/LVF, has no perceivable latency).
As it is, many photographers still don’t consider mirrorless as its own seperate “format” of camera (in the way DSLR and medium format are seperate, with their distinct characteristics) — it is still, in many ways, a DSLR (sensor), just missing its mirror.
If the large sensor is the main point of mirrorless, what we need is to see some genuinely big advances in sensor technology. Global electronic shutter would put mirrorless in an entire class of its own (with no major overlap onto other segments): high image quality, zero lag, dead silent operation, jello-free video. It would give mirrorless a clean break from DSLRs, because DSLRs have no immediate need for global shutter (you still have the mirror moving).
Or new sensor concepts, such as integrating a (translucent) mirror onto the sensor in order to accomodate PDAF; or developing a translucent sensor/layer to integrate PDAF onto the sensor: small camera bodies with DSLR performance, seperating mirrorless from high-end compacts.
Mungo
2 years ago |AF is non-issue in current mirrorless cameras. For example: I shoot both Panasonic GH2, Canon 5D mk II and original 5D. In lowlight, GH2 runs circles around both Canons. Although, 5D´s are notorious for their AF performance, so maybe I should not compare..
Atlasman
2 years ago |Two years ago I shot a hockey league (action shots only) with my 5DMKII—I had an outstanding keeper rate. I’m talking an average of 600 images per game, 14 games in all. I don’t see how the GH2 would be able to achieve the fast focus that phase detection can achieve.
Sony with their translucent technology has partially addressed this, but their cameras are still using lenses designed for mirrors.
So, for the time being, when I shoot for dough the DSLRs come out, when its recreational and family, I like small and light.
James70094
2 years ago |Actually, when the Olympus E-P3 was released, it had the World’s Fastest Auto Focus, beating a Canon 7D. All the mirror-less camera have made great strides and compete very well. You might be pleasantly surprised by their capabilities.
spam
2 years ago |The poor AF on 5D (Mk II) is mostly a myth. Quite a few users don’t setup the cameras correctly, and most don’t bother to check for front/back focus even though 5D Mk II has micro focus adjustment. Nobody claims the 5D-AF is top of the line, but it’s by now means low end either.
However the GH2 (and several other mirrorless models) focus as fast as a medium class dSLR, certainly as fast as a 5D. The main problem with most mirrorless systems is viewfinder blackout/lag and poor focus tracking. The GH2 is fast enough as long as you get half a second or more where the subject don’t move, or at least don’t move directly towards or away from the camera.
Bengt Nyman
2 years ago |Agreed.
The issues are EVF and fast AF. Neither are ready for the sports market.
However, there is a clear place for mirrorless in studio and landscape cameras. Here full frame or better is a must, freedom from mirror vibrations would be great, and slow but accurate contrast focus is preferred.
Even though the medium format manufacturers that serve this market are slow and conservative they are bound to wake up to this opportunity sooner or later.
Esa Tuunanen
2 years ago |> In order to kill the DSLR, what are the barriers that the mirrorless system must overcome?
First and foremost those narrowminded marketroids cramming mirrorless into slot of small “girl camera” (like named by Oly representative) or square retro box.
Higher end DSLRs don’t have that size body and grip just as accident and neither are those cameras full of buttons and knobs just because those increase manufacturing cost.
Mirrorless bodies have to match that ergonomy and amount of direct controls to be solid alternative.
Again moving target photography basically needs focusing without trial and error and being able to properly track moving target, which are PDAF’s advantages.
But in other uses mirrorless could be already fully competitive if someone had just hammered some sense into marketroids to allow proper diversity of bodies.
It’s almost like others have been sitting on their thumbs just to let CaNikon come and expand their market domination of SLRs into mirrorless instead of building mirrorless system which challenges CaNikon’s control in DSLRs.
L.Coen
2 years ago |Let’s all pretend we work for Canon and think for a second. The benefits of a CSC camera is what?
1] Small size body and lenses.
2]image quality higher than ps cameras.
3] you have to make an EVF that’s acceptable.
Let’s look at the future.
1] PS cameras will have better image quality
Some PS cameras like the gx will have even better quality than m43 with a larger sensor
2] CSc lenses have to remain small and making large lenses on those cameras defeats the purpose…so a large range of lenses for CSC cameras is severely limited.
3] dslrs will continue to get smaller and they always have an OVF
The question is not if Canon can make a CSC, the question is if they see it as something that makes sense for them to do. At this point, Canon doesn’t see any logic in making a CSC system. Nikon has concluded the same thing when they made the 1 series with cx sensor.It was an attempt to squeeze the m43 market without having to waste resources making an m43-like system. the same goes for Canons gx1.Surround the m43 market on both sides, ps cameras with better IQ, and smaller more affordable dslrs…surround the m43 and choke them out of their own market.
Kylberg
2 years ago |I would agree with Canon that a mirrorless with fixed HQ zoom would be the perfect street photo camera: Say a m4/3 sensor size similar to Fuji X100, but with a 24 – 120/2.0 fixed, collapsable zoom.
Fuji X100 and Leica X1 are prime and fixed, really very old fashion. Today zoom lenses can be booth fast and with high image quality.
z
2 years ago |“Today zoom lenses can be booth fast and with high image quality.”
Can you give an example? AND DON’T EVEN DARE TO SAY THAT 10 MEGARAYS(VGA 640×480) RES CRAP!
The closest is oly’s f/1.8 XZ1 which has teeny tiny sensor and variable aperture.
BTW Fuji X100 doesn’t have m4/3 sensor size, just so you know.
Eric
2 years ago |I doubt a 24-120mm f/2 would be small; and might not even be possible. Just look at the size of the Olympus 12-35mm f/2 (24-70mm eqv). Making it a collapsible design a’la compact cameras/Panasonic X 14-42mm would surly help, but I bet it would still protrude at least 2″ in the collapsed position. It would also have to have a very large diameter.
My guess is a 28-120mm f/3.5-4.5 is far more realistic if using a m4/3′s size sensor…and even that might be too ambitious.
Bottom line; I think Canon is making a mistake if they go the fixed lens route. Why would I want a fixed lens when I can simply buy something like a Panasonic GF3 with collapsible zoom? Then I could put the 20mm f1/.7 in my pocket if I want a bit of shallow DOF.
Ivan
2 years ago |Well if you wan’t an idea of how compact a fixed APS-C zoom can be you just have to wait until Ricoh release their 24-85mm GXR unit in january-february. My guess is that it won’t be very compact at all…
Camaman
2 years ago |90% of upgraders from p&s cameras don’t want to change lenses and don’t need the hassle.
Make a m43 sized sensor camera with some advanced designed 28-110mm f2.8-4.5 fixed lens and that is 99% camera anybody needs.
Make it responsive, with EVF and an external small swivel flash and that’s it.
But that will never happen as that would be one camera for 99% of peoples needs… and there is no money in that for them.
Francisco Madeira Aragão
2 years ago |“28-110mm f2.8-4.5 fixed lens and that is 99% camera anybody needs”
WoW i would gladly pay 999 for this gem
Dan
2 years ago |Clearly, it’s going to be a big year in the camera market and I suspect we’ll see a lot of half-baked concepts emerge. Maybe by 3rd quarter things will take shape in a way that makes more sense.
richy
2 years ago |Make it a full frame that takes ef lenses and I’ll have on tomorrow. Focus peaking would be nice, sensor is (to benefit non great white primes) would be unreal. Canon could make some serious coin if they get it right, they just have to be careful not to release a ‘me also’ product.
richy
2 years ago |The 5d2 has awesome af on the center point and great af on outer points as long as they are over something that has texture on the right plane as they aren’t cross type. It’s also great in low light, not as great as the 1d4 but suprisingly a little better than the 7d.
The only real issue is the points are grouped closely together, canon said due to the chip size affecting the body size etc but in reality it killed enough 1ds3 sales as it was, putting the 1ds3 af in the 5d2 would have killed even more sales. Focus and recompose works well. The 5d2 (and original 5d) are amazing pieces of kit for silly cheap money. Most complaints seem to me to be fixable with technique.
Jake
2 years ago |not really good translation and the really important info was in hidden part of the mag article.
actually the PDF on the site was very very short version of it.
so, this is meaningless post.
Rob
2 years ago |“DSLRs and compacts might eat into mirrorless market”
Wow, Canon still don’t get it. That’s like saying the horse and cart could eat into the car market. Uh huh. Any day now.
Cam
2 years ago |Canon has a point. Mirrorless cameras are good just with certain lenses.Once you stick super telephotos on those things or big zooms it is pointless…too big and awful to hold. So why would canon make an interchangeable mirrorless camera? A good lens range for those cameras is fisheye to perhaps 135mm. You need not look further then sonys 18-200mm e mount lens on their nex to see how silly it can get.i mean, look at all the m43 lenses you can choose from, i doubt many people are forking out for their premiere lenses. there are even award winning photogs that use superzoom point and shoot cameras so large sensor cameras arent a big arguing point as they used to be for quality.
DSLRboxs
2 years ago |yes, i think so…